Curse

Metanoia · Mar 18, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Okay, first of all. I knew pretty much what kind of game GuildWars was before it hit the shelves because I'd played on one of the alpha-weekends.

It's just... I notice there are a lot of people who seem to have bought GW under the impression it was a free MMORPG. More specifically, I read this: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=137542

I'm pretty sure it's just a disgruntled MMORPG fan and I didn't give it all that much thought at the time. But I've noticed that there are actually an aweful lot of people that bought this game soley for the PvE and feel cheated.

So, anyway. I checked he website and read some reviews and... wow, if I hadn't already played the game I'd have thought it was a MMORPG, too.

Disclaimer: This thread isn't to be taken seriously. I'm not bashing PvE, so please put the pitchforks down (eat pun, nubcakes!). I think it's important that people understand that the campaign mode shouldn't be compared to MMORPG's and that perhaps ANet misrepresented GuildWars as such.

So, to the good stuff... (Taken from GuildWars.com)

Is Guild Wars an MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game)?
"Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment."
- I'm not sure what this has to do with MMO's, most games keep online modes seperate from (if) any single player modes for security reasons. Example: Diablo.

"Thousands of players inhabit the same virtual world."
- Yeah, AKA the intarweb. Everyone playing Diablo "inhabit the same virtual world" over so slightly more so than how two people reading the same book "inhabit the same imaginary world".

"Unlike many MMOs, when players form a party and embark upon a quest in Guild Wars, they get their own private copy of the area where the quest takes place."
- Wait... Isn't that what actually makes them MMOs? Example: Pretty much every game that lets you play the same content as someome else without making you all play together.

"This design eliminates some of the frustrating gameplay elements commonly associated with MMOs"
- Oh, now I understand... wait... huh? What's this game got to do with MMOs again?

"Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game)."
- I should hope so, considering it isn't an MMORPG any more than Diablo*. So, why do you keep comparing your CORPG to MMORPGs?
*Think about it, chat channels and towns aren't all that different.

The general impression I get is that when asked directly they admit it's not a MMORPG, yet they seem to always compare it to MMORPGs. The fact there's no subscription fee isn't even relevant because it isn't a MMORPG...

So, opinions? Do you think it was a huge conspiracy to bring in some sales from the MMORPG crowd? Do you think they were fair when comparing their game to "other" MMORPGs? Feel free to add your own and/or refute the comments on what I've quoted.

Ps. Remember, I knew what I was buying, I like what I bought. So I don't really care, but in retrospect I do think it was a rather shamefully misleading. I wont be so quick to tell someone who complains at the lack of PvE content "you bough the wrong game" in the future.

Greedy Gus · Mar 18, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

It seems fairly obvious to me.

Quote:

"Unlike many MMOs, when players form a party and embark upon a quest in Guild Wars, they get their own private copy of the area where the quest takes place."
- Wait... Isn't that what actually makes them MMOs? Example: Pretty much every game that lets you play the same content as someome else without making you all play together.

This is clearly saying that the game is instanced, and therefore not a massively multiplayer game. How is this in any way trying to trick people into thinking it's massively multiplayer in the regular sense?

Quote:

"This design eliminates some of the frustrating gameplay elements commonly associated with MMOs"
- Oh, now I understand... wait... huh? What's this game got to do with MMOs again?

They're pointing out that they did it on purpose because there are a lot of "frustrating" aspects to playing everything along with everyone else. I've never played another MMORPG but I hear the main problems are kill stealers, people blowing through everything ahead of you, etc. Again, I fail to see how this is intended to trick someone into thinking they're buying the same old MMORPG game.

Quote:

"Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game)."
- I should hope so, considering it isn't an MMORPG any more than Diablo*. So, why do you keep comparing your CORPG to MMORPGs

They reason they're contrasting guild wars to regular MMORPGs is because at the time of release, the market was being inundated with everquest/WoW style MMORPGs that mostly followed the same archetype, and it was obvious that coming out with an online role-playing game, comparisons would be drawn and assumptions would be made.

cannonfodder · Mar 18, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Hang on, how can people feel cheated with the PvE environment. its bloody huge, I paid £30 for this game and have had more than enough value for money, people seem to try to compare guild wars with WoW, city of hero's/villians, its a totally different experience, and looks a damn site better to boot. Also it's alot more of a challenge doing a quest/mission with only 8 members. Anyway, I don't think many people will be disappointed with guildwars.

KvanCetre · Mar 18, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

I doubt most people who feel cheated even bothered to research the game in the slighest outside the box.

Fred Kiwi · Mar 18, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Meh, screw those people. What the hell would you expect for a one off price?

Griff Mon · Mar 18, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

My personal favorite misrepresentation of the game was a game reviewer for a major game magazine who said that there was nothing to do after you ascended your character. Obviously, did not spend enough time with the game.

Metanoia · Mar 18, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

...[uber snip]...They reason they're contrasting guild wars to regular MMORPGs is because at the time of release, the market was being inundated with everquest/WoW style MMORPGs that mostly followed the same archetype, and it was obvious that coming out with an online role-playing game, comparisons would be drawn and assumptions would be made.

Ah, yes. That is a much better word for it. But still, they're holding up apples and oranges together. Whether it's to point out the differences/similarities doesn't change that Anet seemed to be trying to snag some of the MMORPG crowd. How many FPS games released during the same month were bragging that there was no monthly subscription fee?

Obviously I don't think this is a real conspiracy, afterall they did have the open beta weekends etc. So if you made an effort you'd have known exactly what you were buying.

Kakumei · Mar 18, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia

Ah, yes. That is a much better word for it. But still, they're holding up apples and oranges together. Whether it's to point out the differences/similarities doesn't change that Anet seemed to be trying to snag some of the MMORPG crowd. How many FPS games released during the same month were bragging that there was no monthly subscription fee?

That was the POINT. That was the REASON the comparisons/contrasts were made. Anet was appealing to the people who normally played MMOs, but didn't like certain things about them, showing GW as a haven from 'killstealers' and 'pkers' and whatnot.

Mavrik · Mar 18, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I don't feel cheated in PvE... I just wish there was a more solid story.

And I never regret getting the game.

Fire Childe · Mar 18, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Greedy Gus pretty much said the bulk of what I wanted to say on the issue, in better words than I could have put it too.

In addition to the points made above:

There is a big issue with the separateness of pvp and pve. I tend to view pvp as the endgame component of pve. i.e. you spend time developing and readying your character in pve play for the tournament and guild battle in pvp. Its a good reason why you would want to get the best items and armour for your character.

I always thought of Guild Wars pvp as the natural extension to finishing the pve campaign. And in my opinion, thats where the fun really starts. IF you look at the only the pve instances in GW in isolation then it is incomplete.

The skillset throughout the beta was always balanced on pvp play, then adapted for pve to sort of train you in how to use said skills in combinations and beat certain skill combinations with counters of your own. I can see why Guild Wars was compared early on to Magic: The Gathering.

Over time pve has kind of become its own game with players reluctant to play tournament and guild battle. Farming basically becomes the endgame for the pve component and I agree, it is tedious, degrading and more often than not extremely boring stuff.

And that is a shame because the greatest strength of Guild Wars, in my humble opinion is in its skill system, in character building, in team building and in the fine balance of all the skills and classes. It is the most elegant combat system in any online fantasy game I have ever played. Hands down.

Alot of people tend to treat the pve Guild Wars component as if it were like that of WoWs. And if you approach GW with a view to comparing it to WoW, you will be dissappointed. Because GW doesnt even try to do what WoW does. The storyline in GW is insultingly bad for a start and alot of the game areas seem to be empty corridors made to look like mountain ranges. And the designers appear to have a paint brush tool for monsters and simply painted them across vast swathes of the continent with little consideration to tactical vantage points or anything like that.

However, if you are willing to let that slide and look in depth at the game's strengths then you may find yourself hooked. But it should be made clear from the start that expecting GW to be anything other than GW will probably lead to disappointment. If you dropped your preconceptions about what MMORPG pve games should be like and got into Guild Wars skill system you might find yourself enjoying this game in a way which you could not with any other generic MMO.

If you treat Guild Wars like Diablo II and grind endlessly using cookie cutter builds ripped from the tyrian explorer's league then you will be sorely dissappointed. Items in Diablo II made a difference to your character. A big difference. In Guild Wars, the difference is almost always in the look and nothing else. So naturally the experience will feel somewhat more vacant.

Cjlr · Mar 18, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Conspiracy theories? I love conspiracy theories!!!! And now, I'll go back and read the thread...

Bah, nothing new or exciting. If you told me that ANet was really an outgrowth of a centuries old secret society responsible for everything from Franz Ferdinand's assassination to the Crusades to sliced bread, that they were plotting secretly with "teh evil terrorists" to "destroy freedom" and drink the blood of your aborted babies while flying their planes into the headquarters of rival game companies, and hiding subliminal messages deep in the fabric of the Guild Wars engine to encourage young upstanding citizens to become corrupt, lazy, and degenerate...

Now that would be cool.

Some guy complaining (no offense Metanoia) about people complaining that Guild Wars isn't really an MMORPG? Hardly worthy of sharing the high-hundred channels with the likes of the CG Dinosaur channel and the Homes with Roller Coasters in them channel.

Overnite · Mar 18, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game

Is Guild Wars missing any of these elements ?

Vilaptca · Mar 18, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by KvanCetre

I doubt most people who feel cheated even bothered to research the game in the slighest outside the box.

Personally, I feel this guy got it right.

Everyone sees free online play on the box, looks at it a bit more thinks its an MMORPG, and just up and buys the game without researching anything about it.

Then when they find its not what they expected, they are disappointed and come to the forums to complain, where we all shoot them down and make them feel stupid for thinking GW was going to be something else.

Kakumei · Mar 18, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnite

MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game

Is Guild Wars missing any of these elements ?

Yes indeed.

awesome sauce · Mar 18, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

It's massive in the cities

Metanoia · Mar 18, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cjlr

...[snip]...Some guy complaining (no offense Metanoia) about people complaining that Guild Wars isn't really an MMORPG? ...[snip]...

*is incredibly offended*

That's mean... I added emotes-n-disclaimer and everything.

Devil's advocate, anyone?

I've been on the opposite end of the discussion before, figured I'd learn something new...

Ps. Nice post, Fire Childe. Your way of explaining that seems to go down a lot better than my "PvE is basically just a tutorial"... Pitchfork wounds itch something aweful.

Double · Mar 18, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

Personally, I feel this guy got it right.

Everyone sees free online play on the box, looks at it a bit more thinks its an MMORPG, and just up and buys the game without researching anything about it.

Then when they find its not what they expected, they are disappointed and come to the forums to complain, where we all shoot them down and make them feel stupid for thinking GW was going to be something else.

And they won't buy Factions which is more of the same and the tiny proportion of players who find GW PvP accessible and enjoyable plus the ones that still haven't realised GW PvE sucks won't provide enough funds for the next chapter or to run the servers and GW will fade away leaving those who were doing the shooting here to stand around holding their dicks.

Kakumei · Mar 18, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by awesome sauce

It's massive in the cities

~100 people is not massive.

Metanoia · Mar 18, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

~100 people is not massive.

Glorified chat channels don't count anyway.

Edit: Double, I'd be surprised if PvE-only players weren't in fact the minority. Maybe a few polls are in order to find out?

Bob of Maple Ave · Mar 18, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

I don't know what to make of this guy's post...some of it seems very plausible, some of it sensationalistic.

A company's got to do what it can to survive. As far as being deliberately evil, I don't really see it. Who's to guess what motivations ArenaNet has for what they do? Even though this guy is a lot closer to the company than I am, his tendency to jump to conclusions and imply wickedness in every deed doesn't do much for his credibility.

What if you were about to release a game, had a bunch of employees underneath you (some of whom you may have actually liked), and realized you could make a lot more money with a few adjustments? What if you later realized that people were more interested in that new aspect of the game than another?

Business is evolutionary in nature. People change, trends change, tastes change, and you have to change to make it.

I bought GuildWars because I thought it was a pure MMORPG and I like the pricing structure. I think a lot of people did. Now that I have it, I'm not entirely unsatisfied with it (although I do want to see some changes).

I'm continuing to look forward to the changes in GW, especially on the MMORPG side. I think that PvP and PvE can achieve a balance, without sacrificing content. I think you can have instant level 40s or 60s instead of capping at level 20. There are so many possibilities...

Of course, if GW makes an evolutionary misstep, then they too will eventually die. But I'm sure they're aware of this, and are doing what they can to make sure that doesn't happen. If you want to call survival a selfish act, then so be it. It is.

For my part, I definitely won't be throwing GW any more lifelines if I don't see more MMORPG content, plain and simple. And unless they think they can compete with the "scope and scale" of WoW or DDO, they can just forget the whole monthly fee thing (if it ever even came up).